When are the Western countries going to pay?

[Todd]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When are the Western countries going to pay?

Originally posted by conkermaniac
None of the examples I gave required YOU to pay money directly to other people. It required the government to pay money to the governments of other countries.

I just wanted to address one thing... Whenever you ask a government to pay for ANYTHING it will in the end come from us, it's citizens. The USA is by far one of the most giving countries around and in the end that means we pay higher taxes. The citizens for the most part are fine with this, as we want to help others in less fortunate places.

So as Epgs said, don't complain that we don't give our fair share. What if after $200 million their research didn't help the situation and they were still off. Should we then give $500 million, $1 billion, more? Where do you draw the line?

Every country has a dark spot on their past here or there. I don't know the facts on some of those cases but ask yourself why any action was done. Generally you'll find the answer is for the good of the world. Compare it to the Afghanistan issue, before we attacked the Taliban, many people were criticizing the USA for getting involved with another countries government. Some people had incredibly strong opinions that we shouldn't be there. Then after the Taliban is more or less removed from the country the oppression has more or less stopped. Go ahead and do some searching on the topic: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/6185.htm

What's my point? The point is that our actions may be opposed but they are done for the good of that country / the world. Can you say the same for the dark spots in other countries history? I'll leave that up to you but remember to view the issues with some perspective. We're not always right, but we're not always wrong either. If you feel that strongly on an issue do something about it. Go raise money for them, door to door, marathons, donate money from your paycheck, contact your government to see if they are willing to help, etc.

Until I see that I usually take someone’s opinion as a gripe and nothing else. The same as those who complain about a corrupt government and yet don't vote..

I'll end my rant with that.

 

[Blank Verse]

Yes. That's what I meant to say

Well said, Todd.

 

[invisionz]

ahh - judge judy please dont remind me, she really gets on my nerves ;(

 

[jw]

Without the US, China would be an even poorer nation. 21% of China's exports go to the US, which totals around $48.72 billion. The citizens don't see any of that money, it goes to line the pockets of the men in power in China. Before you start criticizing the policies of the US, look toward your own country, though you would be put in jail due to the heavily monitored media and closely censored society, so I guess I don't blame you in a way. You're just trying to get on their good list to further your life much as anyone with any sense (including sleezy politicians) do.

 

[Archbob]

Now, the western countries do need to pay the oceanic debts.

But as for Vietnam and Korea. We were in a guerilla warfare. You can't tell who was a villager and who was Viet-cong, innocent looking kids were armed during that conflict, so it became shoot them first before they shoot you--the only decision under those circumstances.

 

[invisionz]

Look at it another way, U.S needs those exports aswell...

Originally posted by jw
Without the US, China would be an even poorer nation. 21% of China's exports go to the US, which totals around $48.72 billion. The citizens don't see any of that money, it goes to line the pockets of the men in power in China. Before you start criticizing the policies of the US, look toward your own country, though you would be put in jail due to the heavily monitored media and closely censored society, so I guess I don't blame you in a way. You're just trying to get on their good list to further your life much as anyone with any sense (including sleezy politicians) do.

 

[Todd]

Originally posted by invisionz
Look at it another way, U.S needs those exports aswell...

Indeed, which is why countries should continue to work together and we should stop trying to place blame on X country. The past is the past, we should learn from it and move on.

If someone feels strongly with an issue or thinks an injustice has been done then I encourage them to do what they can to make it right. (Examples in my last post) Use your local media; if the USA is to blame and becomes a large enough issue the media would be more then happy to raise the issue on slow news days. Then if public pressure is placed on the politicians they will act. It's more or less the system to get results.

 

[conkermaniac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When are the Western countries going to pay?

Originally posted by Todd

I just wanted to address one thing... Whenever you ask a government to pay for ANYTHING it will in the end come from us, it's citizens. The USA is by far one of the most giving countries around and in the end that means we pay higher taxes. The citizens for the most part are fine with this, as we want to help others in less fortunate places.

Well, that's true, but the money isn't coming from you directly. While it is true that Americans pay high taxes, they're nowhere near as high as those that they pay in many European countries.

So as Epgs said, don't complain that we don't give our fair share. What if after $200 million their research didn't help the situation and they were still off. Should we then give $500 million, $1 billion, more? Where do you draw the line?

A court ruled that the US was required to pay a total of $250 million dollars, and so far, they've paid a few million of that amount. If after $250 million dollars, they still can't fix the problem, then it's their problem to figure it out on their own.

Every country has a dark spot on their past here or there. I don't know the facts on some of those cases but ask yourself why any action was done. Generally you'll find the answer is for the good of the world. Compare it to the Afghanistan issue, before we attacked the Taliban, many people were criticizing the USA for getting involved with another countries government. Some people had incredibly strong opinions that we shouldn't be there. Then after the Taliban is more or less removed from the country the oppression has more or less stopped. Go ahead and do some searching on the topic: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/6185.htm

Yes, the Taliban deserved to be removed from power, as they had very little support from the people. There weren't elected. However, if you look at Arafat and Hussein, the US continues to ask for their removal (and you know that they're hoping to assassinate him). They are leaders elected by the majority of the people. In fact, Hussein was elected with 99% of the votes, I believe. Though there probably was some corruption involved with this election, as with all elections, I doubt it could have factored into such an overwhelming majority. If the US messes with these countries, then they are going against democracy.

Henry Kissinger once said that if the US wasn't pleased with the results of an election, they would interfere.

Even if the US did overthrow the Taliban, they didn't do it because of sympathy for the Afghans (though it ended up being that way). The only reason that they did this is because the Taliban was interfering with the US' plans to eliminate Bin Laden. The Taliban had been in power for almost a decade, making unjust laws. If the US truly cared about the Afghans, why didn't they get rid of the Taliban earlier?

What's my point? The point is that our actions may be opposed but they are done for the good of that country / the world. Can you say the same for the dark spots in other countries history? I'll leave that up to you but remember to view the issues with some perspective. We're not always right, but we're not always wrong either. If you feel that strongly on an issue do something about it. Go raise money for them, door to door, marathons, donate money from your paycheck, contact your government to see if they are willing to help, etc.

I realize that all countries have their dark sides, but these are issues that continue to affect us today. I mean, testing nuclear weapons on someone else's land is a very serious issue. So is the declining phosphate in Nauru, as that country has no natural resources (because they were all stripped away when the Australians wanted to mine phosphate), and perhaps as soon as next year, we won't know what this tiny island is going to do.

My government? I can barely speak Chinese, and I don't think the US needs to pay China for anything. I'm speaking for all those countries in the world that deserved to be paid. I could try speaking to the US government as well, as I am a citizen there, but I doubt they'd listen, as they get too many e-mails a day. Plus, I wouldn't be able to get enough signatures from Americans, nor would some money do any good.

Many of the US actions were not for the good of the world. As I mentioned before, many of them were started as a result of multinational companies. Woodrow Wilson, for example, invaded the Carribean and Central/South America thanks to the multinational companies. A quote from Smedley Butler that has become famous today:

I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank to collect revenues in... I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903.

Clearly, the interests are not for humanitarian aid. The US does not have this much money to waste, and most of its actions are for keeping its status as the world power and for benefitting its own economy.

Find me proof that the net flow between third-world countries and the US flows away from the US, rather than towards. But I have seen no proof of that thus far, while I have seen a lot of proof of the countries giving back more than what the US gives them, including numerous offline resources.

And it's true that the US needs most things that are made in China. I've been taking a look at many top clothing brands, accessories, toys, machines, etc. seem to have been made in China. Without these imports, the cost of clothing might cost anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times as much, as manufacturing costs in the United States are ridiculously high. I don't think the US would be stupid enough to accept useless imports.

 

[Webdude]

Originally posted by invisionz
Look at it another way, U.S needs those exports as well...

Yeah, we really need all those McDonalds and Burger King toys

Actually, there would be more jobs here if we made the stuff ourselves. Stuff would cost more, but that many more jobs could result in lower taxes for every individual as well.

 

[Canuckkev]

Something about clothing...if it is made in Western countries, not in sweat shops, it will cost a lot more, as you said. But, it will also be of a lot better quality.

The past is the past. If you have a gripe about what the US is currently doing, it would be better to voice your opinion about that issue.

 

[allanh]

hey, conk, just out of interest:

are you a Chinese with a US citizenship or an "American" ?

I am just intrigued on how an American keeps on attacking US?

 

[syd]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When are the Western countries going to pay?

Originally posted by conkermaniac

None of the examples I gave required YOU to pay money directly to other people. It required the government to pay money to the governments of other countries.

Does government's money appears magically from a Leprechan's butthole or what? If they money doesn't come from us, then what happened to all that $1000's of dollars missing from my bank account?

 

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by allanh
hey, conk, just out of interest:

are you a Chinese with a US citizenship or an "American" ?

I am just intrigued on how an American keeps on attacking US?

I'm an American, but I'm not "attacking" the United States. I probably could find just as many problems with China, but the thing is, I don't have to tell you about China's problems, as the American media blabbers away about it all the time. They never seem to admit America's faults ever (same reason as why the Chinese media doesn't admit China's faults). People think of the US (Americans, especially) as the savior of the world, when really, their focuses were far from humanitarian. This misconception oftentimes is often farcical because it doesn't make sense. Not being patriotic? Perhaps, but I value truth greater than blind patriotism.

If you want to see another American criticizing America for its policies, try reading "Lies My Teacher Told Me". They have a website for that as well. Try searching for that book on Google, and you'll find their website.

Does government's money appears magically from a Leprechan's butthole or what? If they money doesn't come from us, then what happened to all that $1000's of dollars missing from my bank account?

The keyword in my post is "directly".

Something about clothing...if it is made in Western countries, not in sweat shops, it will cost a lot more, as you said. But, it will also be of a lot better quality.

The past is the past. If you have a gripe about what the US is currently doing, it would be better to voice your opinion about that issue.

Of course it will be of better quality! But honestly, who is going to buy a purse from, say, a new American brand, as opposed to Gucci? The problem is that Europeans have this market cornered, and their labor is cheaper than America as well. It would be impractical to start such a business in America. Rather, America should focus on other markets where their people can come into play and doesn't involve a lot of manual labor. And the US is doing that, which is good.

Yeah, we really need all those McDonalds and Burger King toys

Actually, there would be more jobs here if we made the stuff ourselves. Stuff would cost more, but that many more jobs could result in lower taxes for every individual as well.

Yes, it would lower taxes and unemployment for sure. However, you think any company would be willing to pay $3,000 a year for one worker when they can pay 2000 RMB to a Chinese or even less to African workers?

 

[conkermaniac]

BTW, Webdude, you may not need all the Burger King and McDonald's clothing, but you certainly might like Quiksilver, Nike (yes, I know of their problems), and other toys/accessories for you and your children. The fact is, the third-world countries are a necessity to keeping items cheap.

Anyway, one thing the US does do well is in the category of environmental concerns, and China needs real control on that. I can't even recycle a plastic bottle here.

 

[syd]

Hate to break it to you, but this is the way the world works and it will never change. The rich exploit the poor and that's how it is, like it or not. You want to make everyone equal? Communism doesn't work. So appreciate the fact you have a computer and other material posessions and move on with your life.

Young idealist, get a grip on reality.

And tax dollars come directly from my cheque. I don't care what you say, that money comes directly from me. With the amount of money I payed in taxes, I could have already paid off a semester in college. Now how does THAT not directly affect my life?

 

[invisionz]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When are the Western countries going to pay?

I scammed it off you using cyberwings2.com

Originally posted by syd


Does government's money appears magically from a Leprechan's butthole or what? If they money doesn't come from us, then what happened to all that $1000's of dollars missing from my bank account?

 

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by syd
Hate to break it to you, but this is the way the world works and it will never change. The rich exploit the poor and that's how it is, like it or not. You want to make everyone equal? Communism doesn't work. So appreciate the fact you have a computer and other material posessions and move on with your life.

Young idealist, get a grip on reality.

And tax dollars come directly from my cheque. I don't care what you say, that money comes directly from me. With the amount of money I payed in taxes, I could have already paid off a semester in college. Now how does THAT not directly affect my life?

Well, nobody complains about the fact that the US has wasted billions thus far on the futile "War on Terrorism". Why do you object to repaying some third-world countries for past wrongs (so they at least have a chance to regroup), while you don't mind paying taxes for all these wars and mindless interfering in other countries' affairs? I mean, $250 million is nothing compared to the hundreds of billions that Bush has wasted.

I'm not expecting the world to change. I'm just sighing over the fact that the world is unfair. In fact, if you read my post at all, you would know that.

 

[conkermaniac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When are the Western countries going to pay?

Originally posted by invisionz
I scammed it off you using cyberwings2.com

Nah, you could only scam off $5 using cyberwings2.com, since they only charge that much.

 

[Toefur]

Originally posted by syd
Hate to break it to you, but this is the way the world works and it will never change. The rich exploit the poor and that's how it is, like it or not. You want to make everyone equal? Communism doesn't work. So appreciate the fact you have a computer and other material posessions and move on with your life.

No, no, no!

Of course the world will never change with that attitude. You think it's always going to be like this? You could be part of the solution to the problems in our world; but instead you are part of the problem.

Injustices are going on, and continue to go on; because people like you don't care because you think the crux of existence going to college so you can live in brick house and die.

You are rich. You make conscious decisions. You could stand up and refuse to accept the exploitation of the poor; but you dont, because you don't care.

The sooner the world realise that change is possible, is the day that change will occur.

 

[conkermaniac]

On a different note, I just discovered that "recycling" is possible over here, but it's not quite the same thing as the US. You basically give your recycled materials to the garbage men, and they go ahead and sell it to companies who remanufacture proucts.