weezer.org - cease and desist

[keith]

this is for any of you legal buffs out there, or anyone who's interested. just need a few honest opinions.

well, a guy from weezer's management office contacted me. he was totally positive and cool about everything, and plans to work with me to make improvements and updates to the site.

the catch? weezer wants weezer.org [and weezer.com, they already have weezer.net].

so what kind of steps can they take. am i legally binded to give it up without a fight? can i say i want at least a little more than $17.50 [the cost for the second year's registration] in compensation?

basically what it comes down to, is that i've worked on this site for the poast 2 1/2 years to get it to what it's at now. the guy told me he and the band love the site. many times during the call he used the phrases "really awesome" and "totally excellent" in regards to the site.

so when the switch occurs, if it does, all time put into the site would be flushed, as all the hits i currently recieve [about 4,000 page views a day and growing], would go to the new location. my banner revenue [right now 100+ per month] would go straight to zero. that's all unless i can quicky establish a new domain in it's presence.

plus there's the hundreds of people using email in the few months it's been available. many people thanking me and letting me know it's their primary address.

this is not meant to brag about anything. just freaking out about all the things i stand to lose, most importantly the site's internet presence, and am wondering what any of you think?

just curious as to what steps could be taken. i'll be talking to a lawyer of course, not like this forum is the extent of my legal action...

 

[Ron Seigel]

They can and will very likely submit the request to ICANN (argh...that's not it though...there's another organization that looks after domain disputes...can't remember what it's called now) to transfer the name to them. There's not much you can do about it. The domain is distinct enough that they would probably rule in their favor.

Word of warning: If you make them an offer as to how much you want for the domain you've pretty much screwed yourself. Generally in domain disputes that's considered bad faith on your part and in virtually every case with that element involved the domain has been given to the plaintiff.

Word of advice (and I'm not an attorney so take what you want from this but it's not 100%): Either let them make you an offer (without saying what you want for it) or tell them to shove it (errr...maybe "Thanks but no thanks!" would be better).

If they want it bad enough (which they probably do) they have a pretty good shot at getting it. You might want to figure out what it's going to be like for you without those domains and start making plans for the day they're gone.

 

[keith]

thanks for the reponse.

yeah, i haven't even come close to naming a 'price' on it, don't plan on it either, that would just make everything hostile. the guy and i talkied on the phone for a long time about all sorts of stuff, and he sounds really cool about everything. i'm basically between saying "let me consult my lawyer for options" or "ok, so what are you willing to compensate?"

i stand to lose a crapload of traffic. you have no idea how many hits altavista alone gives me... along with about 20 other major search engines. now they're all going to go to this other site. dammit it all.

 

[Remy Canad]

I dont know, they might just want to buy the whole thing. But they will have to compinsate you for sure. You can sue them for the income you dont get anymore, and you can prove that from you hit tracker. I think your site is too big, in size and maby hits. Now they have taken domains away from lots of sites, but most of them are just a page, or random stuff. I dunno you have a chance personally I wouldnt even be thinking of loosing it yet. but thats just me.

 

[Webdude]

Ron are you sure about that? I would LOVE to take Worldzone.com hehe. Worldzone.net IS a registered Corporation in the U.S. and Worldzone.com is some place over in Malaysia with a couple of sales offices in Cali. How would I look into that?

And Keith, I would just mention to them how much traffic and revenue you would lose each month and if they would be willing to compensate for that. I think you said you make about $100/month...tell them $200 is what you make. Trust me, they wont get offended. The more hits and revenue you currently get, the more they will be interested in paying you more for it...simply because they can easily make quadruple or more if THEY have the site, and make their money back that they paid you for it. Probably easier than what I want to do with Worldzone.com...which by the way when they were contacted, basically told our guy to goto h*ll when we asked if they'd be willing to sell the domain name....extremely rude (and barely spoke english well enough to even say that from what I was told..LOL)

Oh by the way...I can personally guarantee you a price if you sell to us, then if they want it, they can pay us. At least you know you would get something out of it and not have to worry about them getting dirty about it.

[Edited by Webdude on 11-10-2000 at 01:37 AM]

 

[Tater]

Hey Keith,

I sure as hell ain't no lawyer. But I have a couple of thoughts.

1: Generally, as long as they made the first contact with you about obtaining the domain (and you can document it), then you should be okay. But if you contact them first and offer to sell the domain, you could be considered a sqatter.

2: Do you have written permission from the band to display all the photos and lyrics on your site? Do you have a waiver from the band to derive income from using their name/images/likeness/content on your website? If not then this might have already put you in a bad spot if they try and take the domain. If you go to arbitration they could say you infringed on their copyrights.

Like I said, just a couple of thoughts.

Peace

 

[Mandrake]

Originally posted by Ron Seigel
They can and will very likely submit the request to ICANN (argh...that's not it though...there's another organization that looks after domain disputes...can't remember what it's called now) to transfer the name to them. There's not much you can do about it. The domain is distinct enough that they would probably rule in their favor.

It's the WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organisation)... A United Nations body setup to handle global copyright disputes.

 

[keith]

basically, i'm not making an offer for how much i want. i don't wanna give it up period. but from the little bit of research i've done since receiving this notice, i've really got no choice. damn it all.

 

[Mandrake]

Originally posted by keith
basically, i'm not making an offer for how much i want. i don't wanna give it up period. but from the little bit of research i've done since receiving this notice, i've really got no choice. damn it all.

Probably the best thing would be to grab a new domain (maybe look into weezer.ws, or weezer.cc) and then setup a redirect page on weezer.org telling people of the new domain and then either stall as long as you can to give it up, or work a deal with them to have the page up there for a certain amount of time to try to get people to learn the address... I know that ESPN did this for someone that they took a domain from. The worst part is Alta Vista... They take bloody forever to update.


[Edited by Mandrake on 11-10-2000 at 11:12 AM]

 

[keith]

Originally posted by Tater
Do you have written permission from the band to display all the photos and lyrics on your site? Do you have a waiver from the band to derive income from using their name/images/likeness/content on your website? If not then this might have already put you in a bad spot if they try and take the domain. If you go to arbitration they could say you infringed on their copyrights.

well, i make about 5$/day now. i put about 2-3 hours into the site per day on average [research, updates, answering emails, paying for the domain/webspace, etc]. so even if i worked 1 hour per day, that's still less than minimum wage. right now counting all the hours i work on it, i'm make like $1.50/hr. the banner's basically just a way of paying myself a way-too-modest fee for doing the site. i'm not just sitting back and making this revenue, i'm putting constant work into the site, and i think payment under minimum wage is certainly acceptable.

now on the other hand, if i bought a truckload of weezer t-shirts for $15 each, then turned around and sold them on my site for $30 each to make a profit that way, then that would be a huge problem. the way i see it now, i'm not making a profit. a $100+ check looks good at the end of the month, but it's not very much on a day to dy basis/

that's the way i see it. lemme know if that's incorrect.

 

[Tater]

Originally posted by keith
well, i make about 5$/day now. i put about 2-3 hours into the site per day on average [research, updates, answering emails, paying for the domain/webspace, etc]. so even if i worked 1 hour per day, that's still less than minimum wage. right now counting all the hours i work on it, i'm make like $1.50/hr. the banner's basically just a way of paying myself a way-too-modest fee for doing the site. i'm not just sitting back and making this revenue, i'm putting constant work into the site, and i think payment under minimum wage is certainly acceptable.

now on the other hand, if i bought a truckload of weezer t-shirts for $15 each, then turned around and sold them on my site for $30 each to make a profit that way, then that would be a huge problem. the way i see it now, i'm not making a profit. a $100+ check looks good at the end of the month, but it's not very much on a day to dy basis/

that's the way i see it. lemme know if that's incorrect.

I don't think the amount of money you make or whether or not you make a profit at all would be the factor. The fact that if you used copyright material without their permission would be the rub, regardless of how much you made.

I'm not saying you would be screwed, just if they tried to take the domain through arbitration, this would more than likely be used against you.

Peace

 

[Mandrake]

Hopefully it won't come to that... I would think it would be rather disturbing, myself, to have to go to court against someone who I had thought that highly of. Reminds me of what the fellow who registered juliaroberts.com had to go through.

 

[Webdude]

Well first off weezer is probably doing this on their own and not through their record company. I doubt if they have the kind of money to go thru the trouble of suing someone who doesnt have any money, and even possibly lose the case themselves and get counter sued. Probably the best they could do over copyright infringement is get your site shut down and that's about it. According to the Digital Millineum Copyright Act that is their first, albeit not 'only' option....but it is the simplest.

I have studied up on the DMCA and I love the protection it gives me, and I can pass that protection on to members....plus I make more money because of it due to other things in it.

 

[Tater]

Originally posted by Mandrake
Hopefully it won't come to that... I would think it would be rather disturbing, myself, to have to go to court against someone who I had thought that highly of. Reminds me of what the fellow who registered juliaroberts.com had to go through.

I hope it doesn't come to that either. Hopefully they will offer Keith big bucks for the domain and hire him to run the site for them. You never know...

However it goes Keith, I wish you luck.

Peace

 

[Ron Seigel]

Huh?

Originally posted by Webdude
I doubt if they have the kind of money to go thru the trouble of suing someone who doesnt have any money, and even possibly lose the case themselves and get counter sued.

That's not the way it works. There's NO sueing involved at all. You pay a $5000 fee to WIPO and state your case in writing, the other party has an opportunity to state their case, and then WIPO decides who gets the domain. It's almost always simply done in writing. There's no coutersueing involved at all either. WIPO has the complete and last word on domain disputes and there's no way to fight them.

 

[Webdude]

Re: Huh?

Originally posted by Ron Seigel
That's not the way it works. There's NO sueing involved at all. You pay a $5000 fee to WIPO and state your case in writing, the other party has an opportunity to state their case, and then WIPO decides who gets the domain. It's almost always simply done in writing. There's no coutersueing involved at all either. WIPO has the complete and last word on domain disputes and there's no way to fight them.

Oh...ok. Now I gotta go check the carseat and couches and see if I can scrape up $5,000 and go find WIPO's addy. Nah...better wait to see if we got even a chance of taking a domain from a Malaysian company.

Well I just found the price is actually $1500-$3000 depending if you want a one person panel or a three person panel to review your case..not as high as I would have expected. I would have expected $5000-$10000
http://arbiter.wipo.int/domains/fees/index.html

[Edited by Webdude on 11-11-2000 at 03:25 AM]

 

[Epgs]

my non-lawyer take

I again am no lawyer

but i think if you did not go into it to sell the domain to weezer then you have full rights to the domain.

 

[stu]

Re: Re: Huh?

Originally posted by Webdude
Oh...ok. Now I gotta go check the carseat and couches and see if I can scrape up $5,000 and go find WIPO's addy. Nah...better wait to see if we got even a chance of taking a domain from a Malaysian company.

They might be thinking of taking your domain as well.. They may have a better chance.

 

[Webdude]

I seriously doubt they would ever be able to do that. We have the .net and .org version, as well as having both 'Worldzone LLC' and 'The Worldzone Group LLC' registered as corporate names of the company. I was reading most of the night on WIPO's site going through their cases and all that. Based off the info above of our legal names and that we have 2 of the 3 most popular .tld's of the name.....and WIPO's past case records, WIPO would probably give us the .com version. I notice tend to lean towards an American company against non-American companies and individuals. It seems not very fair or just if you happen to be an individual or a non-American based company....

 

[keith]

just to clear any inconsistancies up, it's basically weezer's management and their record label's lawyers [i think]. i don't think they [the band members] could care less what domain they have.

if it came to a head, i'd be going up against interscope/geffen most likely, not weezer. i'm gonna end up giving it up without a fight anyhow.

plus, the guy never mentioned anything about copyrighted material. in fact, he told me he and the band love my site and offered to 'brainstorm' ideas for the site with me,

he also put me on a mailing list to recieve breaking updates the same second big sites like rollingstone.com, spin.com, etc, receive. plus whatever ideas he and i come up with, plus linking to my site from the new one, so any old hits that go to the new site will be able to find mine.

plus tickets, backdstage passes, etc... they're treating me really nice because they know i'm a true fan, not some cyber squatter like the guy who owns weezer.com is

overall, it's not a bad deal...