Looters in Iraq

[conkermaniac]

To those who think that the looting of the Iraqi civilians was justified because they were so desperate: I guess they needed artifacts from 8000 years ago too, didn't they?

This is just horrible. Artifacts dating back to Mesopotamia, the first known civilization, have now been stolen. The Iraqi people have shown just how uncivilized they are. I'm thinking, "And these same people can actually manage a democracy?" :angry2:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/12/sprj.irq.int.baghdad.museum.reut/index.html

 

[conkermaniac]

I would like to add that if we killed half the people in the United States, the loss of life could not replace what has been lost in the museum. :cry2:

 

[Toefur]

The loss of this museum is simply one of the greatest non human losses humanity may have ever faced (I hope it's not as bad as it looks and I am exagerating). No, it doesn't stack up to any of the mass killings humanity has engaged in but it still strikes me as one of the worlds great tragedies. They should have sent ----ing troops to protect this stuff from the outset if they were going to invade. It should have been part of the war plans from the start.

This is one of the great crimes of history, right there with the burning of the Library of Alexandria.

Of course, they could protect the oil, couldn't they?

U.S. military commanders contend they are doing as much as they can to stem the thievery. But they acknowledge they do not have enough troops to patrol every looting-prone part of the city while also focusing on stamping out lingering pockets of resistance and guarding against suicide attacks.

Some Iraqis, however, question the allocation of U.S. forces around the capital. They note a whole company of Marines, along with at least a half-dozen amphibious assault vehicles, has been assigned to guard the Oil Ministry, while many other ministries — including trade, information, planning, health and education — remain unprotected.

I don't think US forces had the intention of seeing these invaluable artefacts looted or destroyed. They just didn't care about them.

 

[Jan]

I mentioned this in another thread.

Iraqis expressed increasing frustration over the lawlessness that has gripped the capital since the arrival of US troops and the fall of Saddam Hussein.

Looters ransacked government buildings, hospitals and schools, and the National Museum, taking or destroying many of the country's archaeological treasures.

A museum employee arrived overnight to find the administrative offices trashed by looters. The only thing she could salvage was a telephone book-sized volume.

She refused to give her name. With tears, she said, "It is all the fault of the Americans. This is Iraq's civilisation. And it's all gone now."

An elderly museum guard said hundreds of looters attacked on Friday and carried away artifacts on pushcarts and wheelbarrows.

The two-storey museum's marble staircase was chipped, suggesting looters might have dragged heavier items down on pushcarts or slabs of wood.

Glass display cases were shattered and broken pieces of ancient pottery and statues were scattered everywhere.

The National Museum held artifacts from thousands of years of history in the Tigris-Euphrates basin, widely held to be the site of the world's earliest civilisations.

Before the war, the museum closed its doors and secretly placed the most precious artifacts in storage, but the metal storeroom doors were smashed and everything was taken.

"This is the property of this nation and is the treasure of 7,000 years of civilisation," said museum employee Ali Mahmoud. "What does this country think it is doing?"

Source

 

[Toefur]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
I'm thinking, "And these same people can actually manage a democracy?" :angry2:

Speaking of which, I read an article (I'm trying to find it right now) that mentioned that the leading Shi'ite opposition party was refusing to discuss things because the Americans were still in Iraqi; and similarily a bunch of Shi'ite's were beaten to death by a bunch of Sunni's. (Or it could have been the other way around, Sunni, Shiite, Kurd... it's all the same to me )

Can't find the articles right now, but am still looking.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how they all get on together, especially when you consider the Kurds want their own seperate country in northern Iraq; but that's too off topic for this thread.

 

[Robert]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
I would like to add that if we killed half the people in the United States, the loss of life could not replace what has been lost in the museum. :cry2:

And why does it have to be half of the people in the United States? Why can't it be China? They have more citizens than the U.S.

 

[Robert]

I really can't see how it is the U.S. fault for this, sure we should have "guarded" the Museum, but on our defense, the Iraqi people should have a little more respect for their own country and not have done that. Oh wait, respect for their country? I don't think Saddam has taught them that, luckily for them the U.S. will.

 

[Jan]

Originally posted by Robert
I really can't see how it is the U.S. fault for this, sure we should have "guarded" the Museum, but on our defense, the Iraqi people should have a little more respect for their own country and not have done that.

I agree with this part of it, the Iraqis should have treasured their 7000+ year history and left it alone. Some of these artifacts may never be recovered. Very sad :cry2:

 

[CareBear]

Originally posted by Robert
I really can't see how it is the U.S. fault for this, sure we should have "guarded" the Museum, but on our defense, the Iraqi people should have a little more respect for their own country and not have done that.

It doesn't really surprise me that a country with hardly any historical heritage of its own wouldn't care about something as trivial as that.
History has shown that any toppling of an oppresive regime will result in 'anarchy'. Looting historical artificats would have happened in any country all over the world and the US should have been prepared to handle it and return order in a fairly short timeframe.
If you can spare the troops it takes to guard their natural resources then you should spare the troops it takes to preserve their cultural heritage as well. It's not only their own, it's all of ours as well.

Oh wait, respect for their country? I don't think Saddam has taught them that, luckily for them the U.S. will.

For better or for worse Saddam was their head of state, you're just there to 'liberate' them from him and then leave and let them govern themselves without further US interference. Teaching them your values isn't a part of that.

I saw a very appropriate quote the other day: "The love for one country, leads to the hate of another".
In my personal opinion it fits Americans best..

 

[Robert]

Originally posted by CareBear


I saw a very appropriate quote the other day: "The love for one country, leads to the hate of another".
In my personal opinion it fits Americans best..

Good Quote.

 

[Jan]

As has been said many times, looting always occurs after a disaster, be it a flood, cyclone, tornado, earthquake, war. Whilst I don't condone the Iraqis raping their natural heritage, the coalition certainly can't be held to ransom for not doing more to stop it. There is still a war going on and they need to be alert at all times. If they give all their attention to the looters, who knows what hell will break loose.

We can "dictate" from the comfort of our homes, but just try to put yourselves in the shoes (boots) of the those young guys and girls over there in a war zone. You would never know their fear, never know which "nice citizen" was a suicide bomber. Okay and for those who say the coalition shouldn't be there anyway, well tough, they are, (and way too late to turn back the clock) and some are not much older than you, I would like to see how you would react in a 25% less scary situation.

 

[keith]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
I would like to add that if we killed half the people in the United States, the loss of life could not replace what has been lost in the museum. :cry2:

i can't believe you just said that.

 

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Robert
And why does it have to be half of the people in the United States? Why can't it be China? They have more citizens than the U.S.

You're missing the point entirely. It's not about whether China, US, Australia, or whatever country being used as an example. I just picked the United States because they were the first country to come to mind (as they were the most responsible for these events happening).

Nobody will give a damn about any of us or anything that we own in 8000 years. That's my point!

Ugh...what I hate about many Americans is that they get offended when someone makes an indirect comment about them, yet they feel free to insult "those Muslim bastards"...

 

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by CareBear
It doesn't really surprise me that a country with hardly any historical heritage of its own wouldn't care about something as trivial as that.

You've certainly got that right! For the three years that I've studied US history, we've spent about 1 week on the millenia that the Indians inhabited the Americas, a month on what happened from 1492-independence, and the rest of the year on what has happened since 1776. Utter discrimination of the Native Americans, if you ask me.

History has shown that any toppling of an oppresive regime will result in 'anarchy'. Looting historical artificats would have happened in any country all over the world and the US should have been prepared to handle it and return order in a fairly short timeframe.
If you can spare the troops it takes to guard their natural resources then you should spare the troops it takes to preserve their cultural heritage as well. It's not only their own, it's all of ours as well.

What bugs me most is that America invests all its resources into defending the OIL (a resource that will certainly run out in a few decades), when they ignore the important artifacts in the museum that can be used to attract tourists for centuries.

We can "dictate" from the comfort of our homes, but just try to put yourselves in the shoes (boots) of the those young guys and girls over there in a war zone. You would never know their fear, never know which "nice citizen" was a suicide bomber. Okay and for those who say the coalition shouldn't be there anyway, well tough, they are, (and way too late to turn back the clock) and some are not much older than you, I would like to see how you would react in a 25% less scary situation.

The military officials should command the soldiers to shoot the idiots. If I were in the same position, I certainly would fire on the civilians (unless I was specifically given orders not to).

 

[Todd]

Has this war simply become a way for individuals to insult the USA at every turn possible? I realize you were saying human lives can't replace history but would you really want to take human lives to save history? If yes, where do you draw the line? How many people can be taken to save what amount of artifacts? It’s an impossible question to answer..

If you see my logic here we're trying to value all life more so then individual pieces of looted merchandise. I agree the loss of historic artifacts is horrible as it's something that we can't replace, unlike pretty much everything else that was looted.

However, with that said it doesn't give you a reason to insult the USA and our history. If you find it insignificant to X country then so be it but saying the American people don't respect history because they don't have much of their own is beyond wrong. I won’t even get in to that but hopefully you’ll at least acknowledge that point.

I again go back to the question: Will the Iraqi people be better off now or then? Blame the USA all you want but the bottom-line is the people responsible are those who looted. Most Iraqi citizens are just as appalled at the looting as we are. It only takes a few to make a lot of people look bad.

 

[Webdude]

You are hilarious Conk. You expect the Iraqi people to overthrow a dictator, but then blame the U.S. military for the Iraqi's failure to protect historical artifacts from their own looters. If you think they could have risen against their dictator, then why dont you think they could could have stopped the looting people on their own?

Kinda makes me think maybe it wasnt worth protecting.. Either that, OR they are truly too weak. If they cant stop looters, theres no way they could have stopped Saddam.

So Conk, now that I have your cornered, which view will you be backing off of now?

 

[AngelaAndJewel]

Todd, I agree with you that this has turned into a free for all to bash the U.S.A. at in every thread.

Conker to say we don't have history is ludicrous. It may not go back as far but there is still history. We are one of the few countries who fought for independence and freedoms because we had the guts to do it. As far as the American indians are concerned there is a failure to mention that these atrocities also occured at the hands of the Spanish in South America not to mention many other countries with in their "HISTORY" of human degradation. The Spanish wiped out whole civilizations for gold and sugar and brought disease that did the rest in (syphillis was a big killer). I am getting sick and tired of the U.S.A. bashing. You got something to say stick to the point or start a new thread with bashing in mind.

 

[Robert]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Ugh...what I hate about many Americans is that they get offended when someone makes an indirect comment about them, yet they feel free to insult "those Muslim bastards"...

Well.. let's see.. all your posts lately has been attacking Americans.

Just leave us the hell alone and we won't bother you. But don't threaten us and don't try to lie to us.

 

[AngelaAndJewel]

Conkermaniac,
Just exactly what country do you hold citizenship?

 

[Nick]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
I would like to add that if we killed half the people in the United States, the loss of life could not replace what has been lost in the museum. :cry2:

What a heartless comment. Your "I just picked the United States because they were the first country to come to mind (as they were the most responsible for these events happening)." comment is complete bullshit because you have been quick to bash the United States recently.

Don't mistake me for a very patriotic person; HOWEVER, I will take offense when you say the value of lives of people who could very well be my family members is less than historic artifacts. Who the ---- are you to place any kind of value on someone's family? You are in absolutely NO POSITION place a value on the life of any human being whether they're American, Chinese, Iraqi, or any other nationality.

If you don't understand why I take such offense to this, how would you feel if I were to say "If we killed all of your family members, the loss of their life would not replace the loss of my tooth brush." I'm sure you would take offense, and if you were to say you didn't -- I would not believe it. Now, go ahead and throw up the argument that the value of a tooth brush isn't comparable to the lost artifacts. Different people have different perspectives when it comes to material objects, but NO ONE can put a value on the life of another human being.

Think before you are so quick to open your mouth.