loggerheads
New Member
I heard the vietnam war was filmed in a tv studio in area 51.
or not. but still.
or not. but still.
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America admits suspects died in interrogations
- Thread starter Toefur
- Start date
AngelaAndJewel
New Member
Gas prices are continually coming down here.
jason
New Member
that statement alone shows you don't know what your talking about, there are rules of war, haven't you heard of the Geneva Convention?
there has been nothing proven that Al Queda was supported in any way by Iraq. ppl like you keep saying there is proof but nothing has been found. there have been links found to terrorist groups whos target is Israel tho. everyone keeps on going on about 911, im starting to think this war should be called "Operation Misguided Revenge". its estimated that there are close to 3000 civilian causalties so far hmm, famiular number isn't it? something tells me there will be no cerimonal for these ppl in 1 years time.
saddam is evil, he was needed to be gotten rid of but there is no denying that the US broke international law in declearing war on Iraq. not only that but with the use of depleated uranium in the bombs the US is dropping which is considered a WMD they are not only being hypocrites but ensuring that the Iraqi ppl will be suffering for years to come, wanna see what effect depleated uranium has? check this out this link but only if you have a strong stomach.
http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html
I agree completely that torture is wrong and I believe we should hold ourselves to a higher level. I however believe that stress and duress tactics are acceptable. I also believe the threat of exporting them to a country that does torture is acceptable. Without those tactics the flow of information would stop and more innocent people would die. I have no doubt about that.
You'll have to forgive me for not shedding a tear for terrorists that die though. I'd like to hold myself to a higher moral authority but it's hard to feel sorry for those who want to kill you.
Let's also remember that thankfully our media and government reports these things to us. Such as this one also:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/12/04/afghan.detainee.death/index.html
Other governments like Saddam Hussein's rule would simply kill the people, bury or burn the bodies, and deny everything. Find more evidence of actual torture and the government would feel the pressure. Considering how many people are detained right now and the small number of deaths I doubt there is widespread torture. If anything it might be a case of an over zealous interrogator who stepped over the line. That doesn't excuse torture but it might put it in better context.
You'll have to forgive me for not shedding a tear for terrorists that die though. I'd like to hold myself to a higher moral authority but it's hard to feel sorry for those who want to kill you.
Let's also remember that thankfully our media and government reports these things to us. Such as this one also:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/12/04/afghan.detainee.death/index.html
Other governments like Saddam Hussein's rule would simply kill the people, bury or burn the bodies, and deny everything. Find more evidence of actual torture and the government would feel the pressure. Considering how many people are detained right now and the small number of deaths I doubt there is widespread torture. If anything it might be a case of an over zealous interrogator who stepped over the line. That doesn't excuse torture but it might put it in better context.
The whole problem of allowing torture under certain circumstances and creating a legal framework around it is that it will eventually spin out of control.
I doubt too many people would be against tortureing terrorists but that would almost certainly mean they'd have to be tortured before being convicted. If they suspect they're holding someone who planted a bomb in a mall that will go off within a day there's no time to convict him.
But what if nobody has been detained yet but we have a list of possible suspects who have tried planting bombs before? Surely it wouldn't be wrong to go hunt from them and then torture them to see if they aren't the ones who planted the bomb?
Or if we can't catch them we could torture the people who might know something. Interrogating them the normal way would take days and days and we could end up with no information at all. Nobody's going to think it's wrong if you torture a dozen or so in the hopes of getting some kind of clue when you can save hundreds right?
What about a kidnapping? Time is also of the essence here, especially when it involves children. Waiting a day could mean they've been horribly abused or murdered or die from hunger. We'd better go and torture everyone that might be involved for information. A child's life is at stake, public opinon will back up any measures taken to get it back to its parent.
In the end let's do away with the whole charging and looking for evidence because we all know the guilty can still walk away. Just detain and torture them and they'll tell you if they did it or not eventually. If they didn't do it we can say "we hope you haven't caused you any inconvenience" and send them on their way.
Bottom point is that in cases where torture could possibly be considered "acceptable" there will be a considerable need to get the information ASAP. Are you willing to legally suspend the whole justice system of being charged and getting convicted at the whim of one investigator?
How many and to what extent would you personally have allowed people to be tortured to prevent something like 911? Just the ones they suspected would be directly involved? Or people who could only be indirectly linked as well?
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All valid questions if you support the use of torture but as I said I don't. I think the stress and duress tactics work well from what I've heard and we don't have a right to torture anyone. Even more so considering they haven't been convicted of anything.
I think the threat of exporting them to a country that does allow torture is a valid method of inflicting stress that may lead to them complying with your request. If you're to actually follow through with it though there better be a legal basis for it.. I think it plays in to our favor if foreign media reports that we're willing to send terrorists to countries that allow torture. That way the terrorists will believe that we're willing to go to such extremes and we're more likely to get the information we need.
It's all about deception, stress, duress, and using that to find the information you need. Once you cross that line and become violent I think many will see themselves as a martyr to their cause and become silently defiant. Just my two cents.
I think the threat of exporting them to a country that does allow torture is a valid method of inflicting stress that may lead to them complying with your request. If you're to actually follow through with it though there better be a legal basis for it.. I think it plays in to our favor if foreign media reports that we're willing to send terrorists to countries that allow torture. That way the terrorists will believe that we're willing to go to such extremes and we're more likely to get the information we need.
It's all about deception, stress, duress, and using that to find the information you need. Once you cross that line and become violent I think many will see themselves as a martyr to their cause and become silently defiant. Just my two cents.
I think terrorists should first be convicted.....in military court. Military court is seperate from the Justice System. In the military, you are actually guilty until proven innocent. I think a new punishment should be added to their laws for convicted terrorists. Torture under interrogation. If the terrorist gives good information, he goes free.
Of course, we also advertise who we get the info from. He wouldnt be a terrorist anymore. He'd have to go into hiding from his own people. Of course if he talks before the conviction, then the sentence would be reduced to prison time, and no-one would know we got any info out of him.
Of course, we also advertise who we get the info from. He wouldnt be a terrorist anymore. He'd have to go into hiding from his own people. Of course if he talks before the conviction, then the sentence would be reduced to prison time, and no-one would know we got any info out of him.
America admits suspects died in interrogations - GOOD
Oh i see now,
so the next time i meet the children of an arabic woman whose mother was raped then executed by some men, i'll just tell them - "oh those men were not wrong in murdering your mother, just different"..
thanks conckermanic - its nice to know where you stand on womens rights.
Oh i see now,
so the next time i meet the children of an arabic woman whose mother was raped then executed by some men, i'll just tell them - "oh those men were not wrong in murdering your mother, just different"..
thanks conckermanic - its nice to know where you stand on womens rights.
Re: America admits suspects died in interrogations - GOOD
You are looking at the situation from a Western perspective. Maybe Muslims find that acceptable. But I'm not an Islam expert, and neither are you, so you have no right to judge their customs.
Re: Re: America admits suspects died in interrogations - GOOD
I'll explain to educate you about human rights now...
A western pespective is irrelevent in maters of humanity since we are all humans.
I have many Muslim friends an they DO NOT find murder an torture acceptable.
Nor do any civilised people.
Im not judging their customs as murder is not a part of there culture or Islam.
- overall you dont sound very civilised, an are possibly from a backward country where ignorance is the common-denominator?
Nope, you got that wrong as well !!!
I'll explain to educate you about human rights now...
A western pespective is irrelevent in maters of humanity since we are all humans.
I have many Muslim friends an they DO NOT find murder an torture acceptable.
Nor do any civilised people.
Im not judging their customs as murder is not a part of there culture or Islam.
- overall you dont sound very civilised, an are possibly from a backward country where ignorance is the common-denominator?
Re: Re: Re: America admits suspects died in interrogations - GOOD
If what you say about the Western perspective is true, then why did Europeans, for centuries, regard many Africans as half-humans? Why were the Jews treated the way they were in much of Europe? Why were there slaves all over the American continent? Why were Native Americans, Africans, and Asians alike all mercilessly massacred? I'm not saying that Africans or Asians didn't commit these same crimes, but at least they don't claim that they believe in equality when they don't. You may believe in equality and freedom, but that doesn't mean most Western people do. And they don't, for a fact.
I don't think torture or murder is acceptable, but I'm not about to question whether it's a human rights abuse or not because I'm not well-informed on this issue. You have a few Muslim friends. Oh great, what about the other 1 billion? How do you know that most of the Muslims in the world even see such actions as torture or murder? Maybe they see this as justice.Originally posted by Taboo
Nope, you got that wrong as well !!!
I'll explain to educate you about human rights now...
A western pespective is irrelevent in maters of humanity since we are all humans.
I have many Muslim friends an they DO NOT find murder an torture acceptable.
Nor do any civilised people.
Im not judging their customs as murder is not a part of there culture or Islam.
- overall you dont sound very civilised, an are possibly from a backward country where ignorance is the common-denominator?
If what you say about the Western perspective is true, then why did Europeans, for centuries, regard many Africans as half-humans? Why were the Jews treated the way they were in much of Europe? Why were there slaves all over the American continent? Why were Native Americans, Africans, and Asians alike all mercilessly massacred? I'm not saying that Africans or Asians didn't commit these same crimes, but at least they don't claim that they believe in equality when they don't. You may believe in equality and freedom, but that doesn't mean most Western people do. And they don't, for a fact.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America admits suspects died in interrogations - GOOD
You don't believe me? When people like Pim Fortyun and Jean-Marie Le Pen get even close to being elected, then something has got to be wrong. I remember a time in the US when anti-Muslim sentiment was very high -- I have also read many Muslim (and even Hindu) websites where they report discrimination in supermarkets, on the street, at work, etc. since the terrorist attacks on the WTC. In New York, for example, Hindus organized a demonstration against terrorism shortly after 9/11. They were mistaken for Muslims, and white people were shouting insults at them. I can't remember what they were exactly, but they were something along the lines of, "What are you doing here? You destroyed our building!" The pied-noirs in Africa -- the rich Frenchmen who were born in Africa: many of them were trained as youngsters to believe themselves better than the "lowly" African population, and they became the sole targets of African militants during the independence movements of the 60s and 70s. And if you go further back, you'll find more events of discrimination, some of which I have already mentioned. Don't get me wrong -- I am not accusing whites alone -- Asians and Africans have the same problems, but it's just that I never hear Asians or Africans try to assert that they all believe in equality.
I'm not talking about politics either, but there are racists running around everywhere, whether the degree of racism is subtle or extreme. Personally, I don't know anybody who truly believes in equality for all people regardless of race, religion, economic status, social status, intelligence, gender, sexuality, etc. IMO, even the least-prejudiced of people unconsciously discriminate.
VLC
New Member
Well get wise, because i truly believe in equality, so now you've met that someone
an for all people, not the lucky few.
An if it is unconciously undone, then at least the good deed is there, an the effort.
an effort yields in own reward, like when the people of russia threw out the communists in 1991 an their royalty in 1917, Hooray for them!
But your wrong about westerners, in fact the british empire forced many countries to stop slavery in the 19th Cen, even though slavery was HIGHLY profitable to the empire.
An they did this out of moral certitude, whereas other countries do things for profit alone.
Like with china in wanting to keep its trade links etc with the USA.
As for the far-east, just look at what the Japs did to your country in Nanking.!!!
Disgusting, i felt sorry for the chinese about that atrocity
READ: I am not singling out the Westerners for being racist. A Chinese person has never come onto this forum claiming that Asian people all believe in equality. A Zambian has never come onto this forum claiming that all African people believe in equality. But someone has come onto this forum claiming that all Westerners believe in equality.Originally posted by VLC
Well get wise, because i truly believe in equality, so now you've met that someone
an for all people, not the lucky few.
An if it is unconciously undone, then at least the good deed is there, an the effort.
an effort yields in own reward, like when the people of russia threw out the communists in 1991 an their royalty in 1917, Hooray for them!
But your wrong about westerners, in fact the british empire forced many countries to stop slavery in the 19th Cen, even though slavery was HIGHLY profitable to the empire.
An they did this out of moral certitude, whereas other countries do things for profit alone.
Like with china in wanting to keep its trade links etc with the USA.
As for the far-east, just look at what the Japs did to your country in Nanking.!!!
Disgusting, i felt sorry for the chinese about that atrocity
Did the Europeans try to stop the enslavement of Africans towards the end? YES! But then again, who started it in the first place? In any case, I'm not saying that Westerners have not ever taken anti-racist measures, but overall, they are very racist.
Are you religious, by any chance? If you are Christian or Jewish, for example, you can't possibly believe in religious tolerance for Hindus, Buddhists, and other "barbarians", as the religions encourage the followers to convert non-believers (which is clearly showing disrespect to another's religion).
And have you never made jokes about "gays"? I know that today, it has sadly become very common among straight teenage guys. I know that I have never used the word "gay" in a derogatory manner, but I am sure that I am prejudiced in other aspects.
