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Is Taiwan a country?

Originally posted by conkermaniac
You just can't give every single ethnic group their own country. Seeing that you're from Turkey, why doesn't your government give the Kurdish people their own country?

I'm sorry but I must say to you something. You don't know much about Turkey, Turkish people and Turkish government. In Turkey, Kurdish and Turkish people are sisters and brothers. We live together, not the same as China.

You must know something too. In Turkish independence war we (Kurdish and Turkish people) fought together. They are not a minority in Turkey.
 
The Chinese communists won't let people know their stupidity, and bad things. Not only SARS, but other things too. If they revealed soon, then there rn't so many people over the world died.
 
Originally posted by daybreak
I'm sorry but I must say to you something. You don't know much about Turkey, Turkish people and Turkish government. In Turkey, Kurdish and Turkish people are sisters and brothers. We live together, not the same as China.

You must know something too. In Turkish independence war we (Kurdish and Turkish people) fought together. They are not a minority in Turkey.

Then why is the Turkish government so fearful of the Kurdish people in Iraq forming an independent government? So afraid, in fact, that they decided to patrol the border despite repeated warnings from the United States. And if they really love Turkish people so much, why don't they just all become a part of Turkey instead of whining about independence? And what about the PKK (now known as KADEK)?

And the Kurds are a minority. Turks make up 80% of Turkey's population, while Kurds make up 20%.

I'm beginning to doubt whether you know your own country. ;)
 
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Originally posted by loggerheads

1) Why 2 billion? the only two factors that need to influence the number of people on this earth are space and food. The earth is a damn big place, it could accomadate loads more people, and despite famines etc there is plenty of food available, the problem is not production but distribution etc.

I agree that the production food isn't a problem -- we have TOO much food in this world, but some people are starving (in Africa) and kids in America are growing fatter and fatter. Distribution is definitely a problem.

However, we must look at other natural resources that are being depleted rapidly. For instance, the percentage of people who migrate to cities each year remains constant. Therefore, as population increases, more and more people move out of the farms into the cities, where they will need cars. Since we only have a limited amount of oil, this resource and many others will be quickly depleted with the growing population. Rainforests are disappearing rapidly because the existing farmland isn't enough for the increasing number of people on the earth. The amount of waste being produced by a growing human population is also increasing.

2) Reasons/practicality; The reason the Chinese government introduced the one child policy is because they felt that if the population increased too much they wouldn't have enough resources to provide for their people, and if your a communist everything for the people type government and the people are starving then you're not gonna last long.

Yes, that's correct. The Chinese government, although fascist, do a decent job of maintaining order in the country through stern policies.

In India they have something of a liberal democracy, the state does not have to and is not necessarily expected to look after everyone so it's not their problem if resources are stretched a bit thin. Also India is (I believe) considerably poorer than China, for the state to finance birth monitoring wardens or whatever the hell you want to call them to go through the slums of New Delhi and every tiny rural village would be crazy.
Well, I would say that in the rural areas, China is just as poor as India. Although I have never been to India, I suspect that the cities are considerably poorer than those in China. But this is irrelevant.

It's actually not that hard for the Indian government to enforce such a policy. Remember that they carry out censuses every few years without any problem. Although people would be able to lie to the government in censuses (they do that in China all the time), their "illegal children" would not have access to any government benefits, such as public education. That should deter many people, although not all, from having children. I understand that India's government will not implement such a policy -- I am just saying that they should. :)

3) good old fashioned human rights/liberalism point, who is the government (or anybody) to decide how many kids someone can have?

I'm considered quite liberal, except when it comes to the issue of babies and human rights. I think the governments need to do something when this world's resources are threatened.
 
Originally posted by loggerheads
But he'd just be like, ah, I have inner peace.

Seriously? I'm gonna try and keep some coherence here with a list.
1) Why 2 billion? the only two factors that need to influence the number of people on this earth are space and food. The earth is a damn big place, it could accomadate loads more people, and despite famines etc there is plenty of food available, the problem is not production but distribution etc.


Well, we have over 6 billion now I believe. People cause pollution, resources, and detriments to the environment. We can grow enough food, but space and food distribution are huge problems. You say the earth is a pretty big place, but habitatible regions aren't that much available. Sure there's enough space but would you want to live in a desert or high up on the peaks of mountains, plenty of space in those places.


3) good old fashioned human rights/liberalism point, who is the government (or anybody) to decide how many kids someone can have?

There you guys go with the human rights thing again. How long does it take westerners to realize that not everyone sees and thinks by their standards? In westernized countries it may be a violation of human right, in other countries, most of society simply thinks that its a benefit and agree to abide by it, this makes is a fair law if most people support it. There are no universal "human rights", the rights are simply what society gives you.

Yes, in the united states it may be a violation of human right to say "women can't show their face in public". But in muslim countries, that has been a tradition for thousands of years and is not a violation of human rights.

The only universal right maybe is the right to live because society has to give that right because otherwise, there wouldn't be a society.
 
Even though I would disagree with anyone who says that the Chinese government is oppressive, let's just assume that for argument's sake. At least the Chinese government sticks to oppressing its own people, and doesn't oppress the whole world.

China massacred protesters (who were shockingly violent) once. Americans seem oblivious to the fact that their country did it twice -- once in 1932 when they used military force to chase out 20,000 war veterans who were demanding their wages immediately, and a second time in 1970 at Kent State.
 
What about tibetans and muslim minorities in xingjiang... I guess none of those people got tortured by the Chinese government. it was self-mutilation. ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO
 
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Originally posted by superstar
What about tibetans and muslim minorities in xingjiang... I guess none of those people got tortured by the Chinese government. it was self-mutilation. ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO

The people in Xinjiang and Tibet were tortured, yes. But the Tiananmen Square Incident was a political protest for government reform. The people in Xinjiang and Tibet want independence, and are resorting to terrorist measures in order to do so. Why does China not have the right to put down terrorist groups if the US has the right to go into Afghanistan and Iraq for the same reason?

In any case, I can give you far more examples of the United States oppressing minorities...first, they used Africans as slave labor, and after they were freed, they were constantly being beaten in the streets by racist policemen (and this continues to happen today quite frequently). The mistreatment of the Native Americans, forcing them to live on "reservations" and killing entire tribes. Asian immigrants were mistreated during the Gold Rush, when they were forced to take lowly jobs (instead of scouring for gold like the "white folks" could), and afterwards, their desperate poverty forced them to work under cruel conditions on the railroad. America has the KKK, a group that continues to commit atrocious crimes against blacks and Jews. The US government was once led by Woodrow Wilson, a white supremacist who vetoed clauses on racial equality, and the FBI was run by J. Edgar Hoover for many decades, a racist who oppressed the civil rights movements. The Know-Nothing Party was formed on the basis that the members all hated the Irish immigrants and Catholics. The sad thing is that I'm not done...

Maybe if you don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't say anything at all. :angry2:

MOD EDIT:: There was no need for the comment I removed from within your/this post
 
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Originally posted by conkermaniac The people in Xinjiang and Tibet were tortured, yes. But the Tiananmen Square Incident was a political protest for government reform. The people in Xinjiang and Tibet want independence, and are resorting to terrorist measures in order to do so. Why does China not have the right to put down terrorist groups if the US has the right to go into Afghanistan and Iraq for the same reason?

Now that's out of the way...

So you are saying China NEVER tortured any tibetans or people from xinjiang who wanted independence, but did not resort to terrorist measures?

And tell us which terrorist group is operating out of tibet? Is it the Dalai Lama? ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO And is falun gong a terrorists group too?

Last question, if I go travelling in China (not that I would ever want to risk my life to go to a disease infested country) carrying a large luggage with "I SUPPORT FALUN GONG AND THE DALAI LAMA" stenciled to the cover, will my luggage be confiscated or will I be tortured like a terrorist?

MOD EDIT:: There was no need for the comment I removed from within your/this post
 
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conkermaniac, superstar,

Please refrain from insinuating the stupidity of people, or calling each other such.
 
Originally posted by conkermaniac
In any case, I can give you far more examples of the United States oppressing minorities...first, they used Africans as slave labor,

As have many countries in their history. China did so at one time also.
and after they were freed, they were constantly being beaten in the streets by racist policemen (and this continues to happen today quite frequently).
Some of those cops were black themselves. There are also plenty of white men beaten by cops also. But you only hear about it when it's a black man who screams discrimination
The mistreatment of the Native Americans, forcing them to live on "reservations" and killing entire tribes.
I lived in Roosevelt Utah for a while. The UTE Indians also lived there. They were given their OWN town (Ft Duchesne) and they have trashed it. They get plenty of oil money, enough to send every one of them to college, get a house, a vehicle, and a bit more. They choose to stay on the reso and drink up their money. They arent repressed by anyone other than themselves.
America has the KKK, a group that continues to commit atrocious crimes against blacks and Jews.
The KKK has been controlled. The Black Panthers are far more of a problem.
Maybe if you don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't say anything at all. :angry2:
and the same could be said for others... :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Webdude
Some of those cops were black themselves. There are also plenty of white men beaten by cops also. But you only hear about it when it's a black man who screams discrimination
I'm not talking about just any old cop beating any old criminal. I'm talking about cops beating a man for seemingly no reason at all (I say "seemingly" because the motive is most likely racism).

A minority can't just scream "discrimination" and get on the news...there first has to be some evidence that the cop persecuted them for no justifiable reason. Maybe where you live it's different, but I know that at least this is true in NJ.

And why do whites get pulled over (for speeding) much less than minorities do? Oh wait...you're just going to say that they're worse drivers, aren't you? :rolleyes:

I lived in Roosevelt Utah for a while. The UTE Indians also lived there. They were given their OWN town (Ft Duchesne) and they have trashed it. They get plenty of oil money, enough to send every one of them to college, get a house, a vehicle, and a bit more. They choose to stay on the reso and drink up their money. They arent repressed by anyone other than themselves.
You've seen one example of Indians living on a reservation, and you think you've seen them all. Perhaps it's because of their confinement that they resort to these vices.

The KKK has been controlled. The Black Panthers are far more of a problem.
Whether they've been controlled or not is irrelevant. My point is that virtually the whole of America (at least the white people) once supported this evil racist organization, until the civil rights movement. It's getting better now, but they still continue to do outlandish things.
 
Originally posted by superstar

So you are saying China NEVER tortured any tibetans or people from xinjiang who wanted independence, but did not resort to terrorist measures?
I never said that. The Chinese government will kill some independence-loving civilians in the process of rooting out terrorism. Were the Afghani civilians who were killed all supporters of bin Laden?

During Sherman's March to the Sea, few of the farmers who had their farms burned, crops stolen, daughters raped (and some people were even killed) were avid supporters of the Confederacy. They were just average civilians like you and me who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some of these people didn't even give a damn about Southern independence. Did they deserve death? Does the US government deserve to be condemned forever because of this act of inhumanity? No, because this bold act kept the nation together. And China is only doing the same thing.

And tell us which terrorist group is operating out of tibet? Is it the Dalai Lama? And is falun gong a terrorists group too?
The Falun Gong is a terrorist group. What they're doing is known as "treason" in most countries...They aren't peaceful, and they get into frequent clashes with the police who are patroling the area to keep them under control.

As for the Dalai Lama is just too stupid to be a terrorist, but there are random terrorists in Tibet. There's nothing of Al-Qaeda significance, but there are small organizations that would never get reported. The Chinese government usually doesn't bother with them unless they start getting rowdy -- they're focused more on Xinjiang because terrorism poses a bigger threat.
 
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